To bail out or not to bail out THE BIG THREE

[novajoe]

I love my American car as much as the next person but I am not sure that my tax dollar should be used as a free hand out for every business that has mismanaged their finances for the last few years. First it was the banks now it is the big three? Where dose this end? If I can't pay my bills at the end of the month can I now call Uncle Sam and get free money? What ever happened to being rewarded for a job well done? And why do we now reward stupidity with a chance for them to do it all over again? Just wandering what everyone else thought on this.

[Profit Of Doom]

I would have to say no we should not bail them out... but my 2 cents don't count for much... because if I ever got to look at where the american dollar goes once it is in the hands of the government bailing out car companies might actually not look so bad

[edcmat-l1]

I love my American car as much as the next person but I am not sure that my tax dolor should be used as a free hand out for every business that has mismanaged their finances for the last few years. First it was the banks now it is the big three? Where dose this end? If I can't pay my bills at the end of the month can I now call Uncle Sam and get free money? What ever happened to being rewarded for a job well done? And why do we now reward stupidity with a chance for them to do it all over again? Just wandering what everyone else thought on this.

Point well made. I don't think we should bail out all the folks that took out ridiculous mortgages either.
Alot of economists say we should let the banks collapse. The weaker ones would only be bought up by the stronger ones, and in the end we would have a more stable economy.
Bailing out both Wall Street, and the BIG3 does nothing to change anyone's behavior. Not to mention it pisses me off that at least some of its my money. Hey, when I'm late paying my monthly taxes for the biz, you better believe they're not gonna let the penalties slide. tisk tisk

[socalmach]

All this bailout crap is just showing people that they're are no consequences for actions/in-actions that have been made. No one will learn and in the end nothing will change.

My $.02 which is worth about $.005 now.:Fscreamin

[grn95t/a]

TO NOT! won't fix a **** thing!

[novajoe]

Point well made. I don't think we should bail out all the folks that took out ridiculous mortgages either.
Alot of economists say we should let the banks collapse. The weaker ones would only be bought up by the stronger ones, and in the end we would have a more stable economy.
Bailing out both Wall Street, and the BIG3 does nothing to change anyone's behavior. Not to mention it pisses me off that at least some of its my money. Hey, when I'm late paying my monthly taxes for the biz, you better believe they're not gonna let the penalties slide. tisk tisk

If we give money to help them then when should we expect them to pay the money back and at what interest rate? Oh wait! I am thinking of how it would be if Joe Blow needed money. I guess it doesn't matter when someone else is spending my money.

All this bailout crap is just showing people that they're are no consequences for actions/in-actions that have been made. No one will learn and in the end nothing will change.

My $.02 which is worth about $.005 now.:Fscreamin

American Business rewards bad judgment. I used to work for Radio Shack who made Lynn Roberts the CEO! This after he ran his past three companies into bankruptcy. WTF If that wasn't bad enough to get him they gave him a 100 million dollar bonus and a private island. Does this sound stupid to anyone else.? Why are American companies failing? I might have an idea. I have seen this become widespread in large corporations.

[Jazz]

Detroit does not deserve to be bailed out. IMO this is the only way to severe the burden of the unions permanently. I said 20 years ago, why should the guy sweeping the floor at the GM plant be making $40 an hour? Waste like that HAS to catch up with you eventual. We are no longer competing in a U.S. market, but globally. Hyundai’s are not junk anymore and Toyota is running in Nascar now. The unions are responsible for what is going on in Detroit. Filing Chapter 11 might be the first step in getting things back in order with U.S. auto manufacturers. Either they are going to have to tighten their belts and suck this up of they will be gone entirely. It’s only fair, years ago I remember that most autoworkers had vacation homes in addition to primary residences. They had custom Harley’s and trick hot rods. All for doing what was basically only a step above unskilled labor in most cases. So if you live in Detroit now you might not be to blame, but your parents sure as heck might be. The UAW workers of today are paying for the greed of those of the past. There needs to be some pain and I don’t think it needs to be shared by the rest of the U.S. taxpayers. Let them restructure and survive on their own or die. If they don’t make it, they will be replaced by stronger, smarter, better companies.

[novajoe]

Detroit does not deserve to be bailed out. IMO this is the only way to severe the burden of the unions permanently. I said 20 years ago, why should the guy sweeping the floor at the GM plant be making $40 an hour? Waste like that HAS to catch up with you eventual. We are no longer competing in a U.S. market, but globally. Hyundai’s are not junk anymore and Toyota is running in Nascar now. The unions are responsible for what is going on in Detroit. Filing Chapter 11 might be the first step in getting things back in order with U.S. auto manufacturers. Either they are going to have to tighten their belts and suck this up of they will be gone entirely. It’s only fair, years ago I remember that most autoworkers had vacation homes in addition to primary residences. They had custom Harley’s and trick hot rods. All for doing what was basically only a step above unskilled labor in most cases. So if you live in Detroit now you might not be to blame, but your parents sure as heck might be. The UAW workers of today are paying for the greed of those of the past. There needs to be some pain and I don’t think it needs to be shared by the rest of the U.S. taxpayers. Let them restructure and survive on their own or die. If they don’t make it, they will be replaced by stronger, smarter, better companies.

I would agree and here is a great example!

The guy who lives behind me works for ford. He has three race trailers and tow vehicles, six Langley race cars, and four more for his 15 year old son. A garage twice the size of my house. He got transfered to Detroit when the local plant closed but didn't want to move so the union got him a travel account to come back every weekend and enough of a raise to buy a house in Detroit too. I see this and think WTF did I go to college for or even graduate high school. I don't even make close to that kind of money and I work hard for what I get.

[Jazz]

Yeah, that's exactly the point. Not add to that the fact that this quy could retire and make almost the same money and keep all his benefits until he dies. What company can afford that. They lived very well for a few years at the expense of the company's future. Now they've eaten their fill and gotten fat and happy and who's going to finally pick up the check for them living large all those years? Personally I'm not interested in paying their bill! Let them file Chapter 11. Let the retired UAW workers suffer a little bit to save the company or they'll be in even worse shape in 2 or 3 years. Anyone here want to see GM become a subsidary of Honda or VW?

[edcmat-l1]

It seems to me, that any company looking for financial assistance has to show ability to pay back a loan, or line of credit. As a small business, I have to have a detailed business model to try and get any money from a bank. Even then they laugh.
I may have missed it, but I don't think I've seen anywhere where they've explained how they're going to pay this back. They cannot continue business as usual and expect to survive. They also shouldn't need to be told what to do to get this money.
Again, as a small business owner, I can tell you, no one wants to invest in a struggling business. It doesn't make sense. So, the gubment is going to invest in failing companies with our money. Something none of them would do with their own money, on a private basis. Seems rediculous when you look at it like that, doesn't it? We should be livid.

[blazin_slp_z28]

new camaro on hold until all the dust settles. read where gm might not be able to sustain operations past the end of the year.

i'd like to opine on the comments about the union on this thread, being an IBEW brother myself now. While I agree that the floor sweeper does not deserve the reported 40 an hour, i'm pretty sure they don't make that much. they start out as helpers, then apprentice, then journeyman, etc....they don't make much. it's the well trained and senior techs (using well trained lightly), make much more. Now, what happens, at least in the ibew area, is that contracts/jobs are bid low and there are a **** ton of apprentices with one senior guy. the company wins that one and gets a poor quality product at a cheap price.
unions are good to a point. it's much like the military (contract) except you have the ability to have a voice when the company violates it. we get to fight for pay raises to keep up with the cost of living whereas an individual might have to look at a pay cut at anytime or lose his job if he doesn't accept it.
enough on that.
the economy is in the ****s, everyone is taking a percentage of the hit, just that when you have billions, your percentage of loss is not as impacting as the little guys like we are.............
i say let them falter, reorganize and go from there....f..k the banks, they deserve to lose everything but my money for giving loans to people they KNEW couldn't afford it. dumb arses.....

[Grifter757]

If you read into it the big three only want a small percent of what the goverment already has for the bailout plans. If they file chapter 11 then they could be able to come back, the airlines did it and are doing better now cause of it. Also Chrysler did this same thing in 1979 and borrowed over a billion to get back on there feet and had i think 10 years to pay it back. They payed it in 6 with all the interest of the 10 years. if they take the money its of my understanding that they will be paying it back.

[edcmat-l1]

On GMA this morning, they reported that the CEO of GM and the CEO of Ford both flew to DC yesterday, to lobby for the bailout money ON THEIR PRIVATE JETS. To the tune of $20,000 round trip for the GM CEO.
In addition, the GM CEO earned 18 mil last year, and Ford's CEO earned 28 mil.
They also reported that both GM and Ford maintain a fleet of 8 private jets EACH, and that the wife of Ford's CEO has the use of their jets.
To top it all off, as if that's not bad enough, they reported that the jet fleets are "non-negotiable". Ain't that a kick in the balls. I say F**K em, let em go under.

[Jazz]

Ceo's and Executives have been milking the profits off of companies for too long. I've seen it personally. I'm a small fry in industry but I see a lot of the big fish. They aren't any smarter or working any harder than the rest of us most of the time. The make mistakes and milk the companies for MILLIONS each year. First I'd say the CEO's and ALL the executives should lose ALL their stock options first thing. The ONLY way to do that is to fill Chapter 11 so they are no longer bound by previous contracts. Otherwise the fat cats are going line their pockets with our tax dollars and then bail. They have no real reason to stay. The money is drying up so they'll retire. Isn't that what any smart person would do?

[edcmat-l1]

I think executive pay should be performance based. That should, in theory, cut their money when things aren't good, and reward them when things are good.
Also, CEO and high ranking exec pay should be voted on by ALL share holders, not just board of directors.
That's akin to Congress giving themselves raises. That's a whole other story too.

[Jazz]

Sometimes an exec can really turn a company around - Apple is a good example(i.e. Steve Jobs) or they can run it into the ground (AIG?, GM?, Ford?). The problem is that they get paid regardless of the outcome. In one year they make more than the rest of us in a lifetime, even if they completely blow it. It's not the same as a small business owner who risks everything, even their family's welfare on how they run their business. You might also be surprised to know that all the boards of directors of large corps. are on more than one board usually. The same people are running all the companies. Not conspiracy, that's a fact.

The same is true of the government. Senators and congressmen really don't live by the rules they impose on us. Professional politicians (most of them former lawyers) are running the country, why do we expect things are going to improve for the average Joe. They have no idea how the rest of us live. Palin might have a bit of a clue, Obama and McCain, I highly doubt it. Maybe once, but not anymore.

It's time to let this correction happen. Better now that later. We're only delaying the inevitable.

[edcmat-l1]

It's time to let this correction happen. Better now that later. We're only delaying the inevitable.

If only there were a way. I'm open to suggestions. I'm all for everyone to stop paying taxes collectively. They can prosecute all of us.
If we stop paying taxes, and stop spending money, we could grind the country to a halt. My business would probably go under too, but if it were in the name of REAL CHANGE I wouldn't mind so much.
We need a good old fashion revolt.

[Jazz]

I am no longer affiliated with Ed, he is a madman and obviously doesn't realize that the Carnivore computer system has logged his call for uprising. Very likely he's already in custody and being "re-educated".

All hail Obama. Long live Obama.

If any men in black suits ask anyone, that's my position...

[edcmat-l1]

I am no longer affiliated with Ed, he is a madman and obviously doesn't realize that the Carnivore computer system has logged his call for uprising. Very likely he's already in custody and being "re-educated".

All hail Obama. Long live Obama.

If any men in black suits ask anyone, that's my position...

:rolling:
:worship: Obama.....

[Jazz]

Ed - Glad to see you've seen the light. I'll be mixing up a batch of that special kool-aid at the next "Meet and Eat", whenever that is. The democrats have all be drinking it for months...


Note: Yesterday was the annivesary of Jonestown.

[Lucy Lu Who]

Well as of today the big three were sent home empty handed.

[Lucy Lu Who]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos
Here's the story so far.

[novajoe]

It is hard to say I am broke when you fly in on your private luxury jet.

[novajoe]

If you could keep your job if you got rid of the Unions, Wouldn't you kick the Union to the crub?

[Jazz]

I say let them go bankrupt and then fix the problems. Otherwise they are just going to use the money as a band aid. We also really don't want the government making decisions for GM. Can you imagine the ZR1 program getting by those freaking bean counters? We'll all be driving K-cars by the end of 2010 if they have their way. For those of you interested in what a state built car looks like, check out the Trabant :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant

[Grifter757]

The big three need to kick the **** unions out file bancruptcy and start anew. If the big three would just scratch the **** cars that are making them loose there ass or complete lines (Like Hummer) and start over. If the big three go down for good the taxpayers are gonna feel it anyway cause there's a lrage gap of taxes that aren't getting paid by them.

Oh and yea sell there **** private jets.

[Jazz]

Personally I think going bankrupt is best for GM, maybe not for Ford since they are still liquid. GM just can't compete in the world market when companies like Tata are figuring out how to make a car for $2500 and Hyundia is building cars so go they are now considered a GOOD car and not just a cheap one.

To save Detriot -

1. Big Three Restructure (lower wages and benefits, fewer brands, better cars)
2. Relax the CAFE standards for the future (re-engineering engines is expensive!)
3. Relax or delay emissions standards for 2 years (re-engineerings cars is expensive)
4. Adopt the same safety standards as Europe so a world platform can be built to save money and time.

These would do more than any loan could and would likely result in the auto industry turning around completely.

[grn95t/a]

bush is going to give them 40 billion before he leaves, just watch and see... and the bad thing is gm isn't worth but 2 billion? but needs 7 times that to keep from going bankurpt?